-- Posted by Judith on 3:24 pm on May 30, 2002 Just wondered if anyone knew where the phrase My Fair Lady comes from. Is it from Pygmalion? -- Posted by Jo C on 4:13 pm on May 30, 2002 Hi Judith! No the title "My Fair Lady" doesn't come from Pygmalion. I won't claim to know everything about this subject, but I think I know the answer to this one. If anyone wants to correct me though, please feel free. Apparently Lerner and Loewe had immense difficulty coming up with a title for their show. They eventually toyed with the title "Fair Lady Eliza", but by this time Rex Harrison had been cast. He was NOT happy about this as any musical with a title like that would undoubtedly be a vehicle for the actress. Of course, in his mind, this show was to belong to HIM, so he disputed the title. One of the partnership (I can't remember which one) came up with using the "Fair Lady" idea, but putting the pronoun "My" infront of it. This would give Rex Harrison a sense of ownership over the show, and therefore keep him happy. So "My Fair Lady" was born. Am I right experts? -- Posted by mmebahorel on 6:39 am on May 31, 2002 There's also speculation (how accurate, I don't know) about the thematics of "London Bridge" ("London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down.  London Bridge is falling down, my fair lady.  Take the keys and lock her up, lock her up, lock her up, take the keys and lock her up, my fair lady.") plus the resemblance to "Mayfair". As far as being part of the invention of the title, I think the first is where they got the phrase and the second is read in by others.  I don't think the first part was conscious, however. It is interesting that Pygmalion was supposed to bring crashing down the verbal edifice of London, and Henry is determined to keep Eliza locked up with him.  It's an interesting thematic fit.  I don't think Lerner and Lowe intended that much subtext, however.  They needed a better title than Pygmalion, but titles are difficult.  The "Fair Lady" part was probably a result of having grown up with "London Bridge" without actually thinking about it.  Subconcious influences are stronger than we realise.  Which then led to the quick fix of finishing the phrase when Harrison expressed displeasure.  Because it was already most of the way there, after all. -- Posted by Lucy on 2:28 pm on May 31, 2002 Lerner and Loewe wouldn't have grown up with "London Bridge" I believe they're both american. Jo C is right I heard it on a documentary. Rex Harrison kicked up a fuss about "Fair Lady Eliza" because it made her the main character not him so they came up with "My Fair Lady" so it related to him! Proud git! -- Posted by Kathryn on 6:37 pm on May 31, 2002 In his autobiography, Rex Harrison doesn't say that he was unhappy with the title.  He says it was partly a pun on "Mayfair", ie said with a cockney accent. By his own admission, he did throw his weight around a bit during rehearsals, though.  For example, he apparently  objected to Eliza singing "Without you" at him because he felt it made him look a fool. He only relented when L and L wrote the By George I really did it.." bit at the end. -- Posted by Lucy on 5:09 am on June 1, 2002 But lets be logical. Is Rex Harrison going to put in his AUTObiography something that makes him look like a selfish, proud man? No. Still it is recorded in Lerner and Loewe's notes and anyway that would make sense with "My Fair" (mayfair) but even cockney's don't put "Lady" on the end. -- Posted by chrisball on 5:12 am on June 1, 2002 Actually, the reference to "London Bridge" is correct.  In the good old days, harlots such as Eliza were tied to stakes and publicly flogged before being dumped in the Thames near Parliament as punishment for speaking with such an awful accent.  They then floated westwards where a barge collected the bodies before dumping them into the Serpentine in Kensington, where their watery grave became known as the resting place of the "Mayfair Lady" by the cockneys.  A "Mayfair Lady" was a description given to somebody who overstepped the mark and was duly punished.   Many believe that the practice was discriminatory and public opinion began to turn against this barbaric practice, resulting in civil unrest and fires.  "London Bridge is burning down" actually originated as a folktune sung by the people's movement against the drowning of harlots, as they started fires at strategic points in the city to prevent the guardsmen of the realm from rolling the flower carriage down to the river to deposit the bodies. All the best, Chris -- Posted by mmebahorel on 9:22 am on June 1, 2002 Lucy, I'm American, so yes, they would have grown up with London Bridge.  I did, after all, and I sincerely doubt it migrated across the pond just at my generation.  That doesn't mean it didn't come over with the war brides, but my parents had no influences of that sort, were born in 1945, and know both London Bridge and Oranges and Lemons, so I suspect their introduction to the States was pre World War II. But thank you for making me feel as if I must be a real subject of the realm *g*. And Chris, Eliza was a good girl, she was!  :D  She could have been a bad girl if she'd wanted to. -- Posted by Jo C on 1:54 pm on June 1, 2002 Chris, that's horrible. What an awful history us Brits seem to have sometimes! I had no idea that happened. Eliza could never have been called a harlot though - she was a good girl, she was! It's quite fascinating though, that the "London Bridge" song was so connected to flower girls and their trade. Clever Trevor and Co for shoving it into the score. Yes now I remember! Of course "London Bridge is Falling Down" was the trigger for the "Fair Lady" part of the title. Thanks for refreshing my memory mmebahorel. -- Posted by Kathryn on 6:52 pm on June 1, 2002 Actually, in his book, Rex Harrison speaks about his shortcomings with honesty and humour. He describes his inability to master the songs at first, and talks about his irritability and tantrums during rehearsals. The lengthy chapter on My Fair Lady is an interesting read, a fascinating inside view on how the show was put together. -- Posted by chrisball on 12:28 pm on June 10, 2002 I think Eliza was a harlot.  Or am I just daydreaming again?   :) -- Posted by Lucy on 1:50 pm on June 10, 2002 Eliza sold flowers dearest. She was under no circumstances a harlot! It was written in a time when harlots could have never gained the respect of the audience. If Bernard Shaw had made her a harlot there would have been public uproar so she wasn't! She's a mere flower girl. It's the same reason that Eva Smith in An inspector calls only considers that and never becomes one because even in the 1940s it was beleived that the audience would not sympathise with the desolation of a prostitute. Were you joking now I've made my point? -- Posted by chrisball on 7:01 am on June 11, 2002 I must stop fantasising . . . -- Posted by Lucy on 3:58 pm on June 11, 2002 You naughty boy! I won't even start on Javert!! :wink: -- Posted by chrisball on 11:39 am on June 12, 2002 There's something about flowergirls that usually makes me wilt, but with Eliza there's something else.  I couldn't comment on Javert, although I've heard that he is a bit of a disciplinarian.  ;) -- Posted by Lucy on 3:54 pm on June 12, 2002 It's something to do with the leather boots and his rather large cudgel (said in all innocence :wink: ) If it's flower girls you're after there's two very nice ones (if not slightly old) in Covent Garden today! :biggrin: -- Posted by mmebahorel on 6:54 pm on June 12, 2002 You guys are awful.  But just remember, with Javert, that big coat means he doesn't have to be wearing any pants (I know this from experience) *g* -- Posted by chrisball on 1:16 pm on June 13, 2002 He might have a big coat and be pantless whilst he swings his cudgel, but can he play football?  (Judging by his national side, the answer is a resounding "no".) Who ever heard of a frenchman who couldn't score? He he he he . . . . -- Posted by Lucy on 1:20 pm on June 13, 2002 Gerard Depardieu (I think that's how you spell it :confused: ) is french. I can't imagine letting him 'score'! -- Posted by chrisball on 7:55 pm on June 13, 2002 And the there's Jacques Chirac . . .  He's hardly an oil painting either. You just can't beat an eloquent Englishman.  Take David Beckham for example . . . -- Posted by nicol on 7:25 am on June 14, 2002 I am agog, I am aghast This board is going down hill fast Debating whether Frenchmen ooh and aah I've never put it to the  test Can't stand the garlic on their breath But thinking leather, I'd say Cantona -- Posted by chrisball on 11:49 am on June 14, 2002 Nicol, you're late. What's wrong today? You look as if you've sent a post. Don't whine, just say what's going on. A post you say, a post maybe. It looked just like a post to me, Your words perfectly matched the song. Do you hear the frenchmen sing? Singing the song of angry men? It is the music of a football side Who just got beat again. When the beaten team depart Then England's fans will beat the drum. There is a cheer about to start When tomorrow comes. Will you watch us stuff the Danes? Who will be watching ITV? I'd rather watch the whole match On the good old BBC. Cos Lineker, Schmeichel and Hansen Beat Lynam hands down! Do you hear the Scotsmen sing? They seem to have turned rather mute. Is it because the tartan army failed To get out of their group? Hear the English voice rejoice, As the Welsh dragons are struck dumb But they'll support Sven Goran's boys When tomorrow comes! (Edited by chrisball at 11:52 am on June 14, 2002) -- Posted by Lucy on 2:30 pm on June 14, 2002 There's a grief that can't be spoken, There's a pain goes on and on; 'Cause your rhythm's pretty awful And your rhyme has gone all wrong. You see I'm glad you put the time in: I will say it's not half-bad; But if you'd like to stop with poems, I think we'd all be glad. Though it's all been quite amusing, I confess I sing along; But I think it's time you gave up, And stopped disgracing my fave songs. You see I think you've lost the plot now Of what this forum's for. Even I can't remember anymore! Nicol and chris, my friends, please listen, To what it is I have to say? God I hope we turn out friendly, But this time you've got to pay! You see it's fine for My Fair Lady. Lerner and Loewe can take it well; But when it comes to "Miserables" Well you all can go to hell! Oh my friends, my friends don't ask me Why you'd want to waste your time I'd never do something as stupid As to try to talk in rhyme. :wink: -- Posted by chrisball on 6:39 am on June 15, 2002 I smell Lucy Smell 'er in the air. Has to give her tuppence Even though nobody cares. Lovely lady Shame her rhythm's out. Must have taken ages Yet the words are laced with doubt. Even writers need a little clout! Lovely Lucy Waiting for a bite Wanting opportunities That only come at night Lovely Lucy Waiting for Javert Standing up or lying down Alas he is not there He's too busy chasing Jean Valjean . . . Come here, my dear Let's read this poem you write. This Les Mis hell Madame,. I'll sell it to you I'll give you four. That wouldn't pay for the ink. I'll give you five.  Your rhyme and rhythm quite stink. It's up to you. It's all I have. That's not our fault. Please make it ten. No more than five. My dear, we all must stay alive. Lovely Lucy Waiting in the wings Ready for a Javert Or a Jean Valjean to spring. Long time, short time Anytime my dear. Cost a little extra if you want to wear your gear. Quick and cheap it needn't take all year . . . -- Posted by nicol on 11:11 am on June 15, 2002 After all, Pickering I'm a quiet message board Unpretentious, conscientious, even tempered, nothing posh A gentle scion of the empire of the sainted Mackintosh An average board am I, �please no eccentric mice! Do talk of Drury Lane, The Rain in Spain Tell me which actor you think is best �- that's nice. Just a quiet message board BUT, Let a Lucy on the loose Conversations lose the plot She will hijack every thread With her dreams of cast in bed If you answer her she'll say You're straying from the play. She's not? Oh Let a Lucy on the loose She'll have you up against a wall Dressed in leather like Javert. P'raps I'd better leave it there... Now we're getting down to rhythm have to say her method isn't it at all. You want to talk of My Fair Lucy? She posts prolifically, but please! Her scripts could be a lot more juicy, And I've seen bees with better knees Let a Lucy near your mice And they'll foget how to play nice Write a post and she'll attack So you'd better watch your back Now she's trying a rendition Of the number 5 position In the upper circle with Jonathan Pryce (Edited by nicol at 4:34 pm on June 15, 2002) -- Posted by Lucy on 6:04 am on June 16, 2002 ME - Tell me quickly, what's the story?        Do you have to get so cross?        I was merely showing my love        For Sir Cam'ron Mackintosh.        For his great "Les Miserables"        Which you both think ripe to kill        With your dodgy rhyme and rhythm        From your grinding Poet's (?) mill. YOU- But Lucy don't you see that we just wanted your         support?         We know we're both God awful and our stanzas         are too short. ME - Well there's some thing's you can't take back        And I'm sad to say there's one.        You have hurt me with you jesting        And my rhyming days are done.        Take your mouse, post this board        Only then will I "de-sword". -- Posted by chrisball on 8:05 am on June 16, 2002 God on high Hear my prayer In my need You have always been there She is young She's a maid, Let her rest, T'would be best. Take her home Take her home Take her home. She's like the girl I might have known If I had never left my home. The readers sigh One by one As emails fly On and on And I am bold And must be gone Bring her peace Bring her joy She is quick And enjoys giving stick. She can't take But can give Let her be Let her live. By the by, do not sigh Let her live, take her home With her tome Take her home. -- Posted by nicol on 9:24 am on June 16, 2002 But Lucy, I thought you'd be happy up there with Jonathan. Don't stop posting. Your Forum need you  ;) -- Posted by Lucy on 10:03 am on June 16, 2002 Well (bites lip) if you put it like that...(dramatic pause)...I guess I'll (everyone holds breath) stay! (applause) (she bows) (more applause) P.S. Nicol...I confess the bit about Jon in the Upper circle was food for the imagination! :biggrin: -- Posted by Kathryn on 4:37 pm on June 16, 2002 Now we know why it's so hot up there in the Upper Circle. ;) -- Posted by chrisball on 10:34 am on June 17, 2002 My Flushed Lady . . . :) -- Posted by Lucy on 2:02 pm on June 17, 2002 (Girlish giggle) :wink: